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Talk:Tactical Surface Fighter/@comment-35881302-20180614184050/@comment-4391208-20180617171847
But my personal biggest problem is the world building it self in the series. Having a god level laser-classes etc. It's what kinda ruins it for me. If you think you cannot use helicopters, jets etc. because laser-classes destroy them with ease. Is TSF then really the solution? Since it kinda suffers same drawbacks as helicopters etc TSF arrives to battle pretty much same way as a jet or vtol, so laser class would shoot it down just the same as a VTOL. There's a fair bit off with the settings (such as BETA appearances being classified despite the worldwide invasion) but TSFs can at least react with vectoring faster than traditional VTOLs or jets can. They can also withstand harder landings (especially if they need to go to ground quickly), and can move around without the need to burn fuel. Granted, you could put wheels or treads on a VTOL to handle that landing, but that then boils down to personal preference of design. It's not like helicopters don't exist in ML, either; in fact, you could say that for their world, helicopters are cheaper versions of TSFs. And if you take the point that it has better movement, weight and vectoring capabilities, Then why can't it carry to jets and helicopters. It seems kinda stupid that you have mech with all that technology but it dosent carry to tanks etc. We have had improvements to aircraft that don't carry over to helicopters; not even tanks, but something at least tangentially related to aircraft, and vice versa, in the real world, and not just to these two objects. I'm simply not convinced that the bridging, or closing, of the technology gap between two distinct development branches of objects in any fiction isn't up to personal preference, given that eg. we've been building increasingly advanced fighters and yet the last time anyone tried to make a new helicopter was the Comanche, which got axed about 14 years ago, as of today. You are free to say that this aspect sucks; I am sorry, but I have to disagree. I will at least offer a suggestion that the setting has shown thus far; if tanks are relegated to tactical medium-range support while alongside TSFs, and are also assigned to, together with the front line, bait the main BETA group away from the Laser-seeking TSFs, wouldn't it be another line of reasoning to continue development as it is, while keeping production costs low for machines/units that are bound to suffer losses if the front BETA group is faster than the Laser-seeking TSFs? Like you could build super heavy tanks with same materials as TSF and it could carry enough DAKKA to send good part of BETA forces to oblivion. Also why not arm TSF's with more fire power, They are huge in size but carry only one gun armed 5 120mm shells and 2000 36mm shells. Why not put point defence guns(perhaps 50.cal or 20mm guns), rocket/missile pods, more main guns with bigger caliber. The technology for building superheavy tanks (I assume we're talking about Bolo-like ones here because an actual, non-superscience superheavy tank will just get rammed to death by Destroyers, and that's just one possible end) simply isn't there in the settings. You could say that TSFs are proof of such advanced technologies, but TSF armor is no more resistant to damage than any other widespread human materials in the settings, and typical hovering action is a fuel-burning process that is generally frowned upon. One can say that they could compensate with a hovercraft base, but that is neither here nor there. They are probably only slightly closer to building superheavy, well-armed tanks than we are. As mentioned before, TSFs have up to 4 weapon carrying spaces. The standard default for the 120s is 6 shells. As for more firepower, it is true that weapons variety is a bit lacking in the series. "Oh well russia has 3000+ AA- gun's", "I gues our airforces are now completly useless." A bit of amendment: "Oh well, Russia has a couple thousand AA guns that can not only defeat our air-to-ground capabilities but also our aircraft, and with 100% accuracy in all cases, multiple shots per minute, and they only need one shot per aircraft or munition to do it. I tried anyways, but now we need a couple air divisions' worth of reinforcements, and we predict that today's absolute slaughter will be our average loss rate of aircraft from now on whenever we throw them into battle again. Oh yeah; also, their AA can now operate for days on end without rearming and refueling." "Holy shit Carl." Like if we have means to build that kinda jump unit, Is something like hover tank impossibility? Given that TSF Jump Units are not known for their fuel savings, yes. Oh, TSFs can fly well enough, but they aren't great on endurance. Their primary purpose is to go in, do the objective, and then get away, if possible. If this mech also has advanced vectoring capabilities then why dont we have VTOL's with same tech? Vectoring is just one aspect of the machine. As mentioned above, you will need TSFs to land often, and maybe even walk. You're going to end up having to build a VTOL with some pretty reinforced landing gear, regardless. Besides, TSFs are VTOL-capable vehicles too. Technically, they fulfill the definition of "VTOL with the same tech". Same deal with the Harrier, really; it's a useful function, but not one it wants to use often unless it's for good reason, fuel being one of them. If 36mm canons are effective against small BETA infantry, then why dont we have more IFV's armed with same cannon? I would hardly call the Tank-class small BETA infantry, but smaller-caliber firearms are indeed usable against Warriors and the like, and are effective. They are just not the focus of the series, and thus don't make any appearances beyond offhand mentions. Most of the infantry is armed with standard assault rifles. So why dont we replace them with something like 50.cal rifles etc. Yui wrecked tank-class just with standard M82 rifle. Of cource this would recuire more money,but honestly at this point we would just have to make everybit of warmachinery as possible. WE DONT HAVE ROOM TO BE PICKY. Yui's AT gun was the OSV-96. Tamase is the one toting the M82. As demonstrated in the VNs, the Warrior-class' reflexes are superhuman from a normal soldier's POV, which, combined with their numbers, makes the fight less than ideal for the human infantry. Soldiers would just straight out zerg their targets, not to mention forcing the defenders to split their attntion between them and the Warriors. Furthermore, while these weapons are indeed powerful, they are nothing without human hands to wield them. Setting up firing positions in a trench is one thing; getting invaded in one's own base and having to escape from it is another. If you notice, most of the assault-rifle-wielding soldiers depicted throughout the series are tasked for interior defences or to shoot other humans; Tank-class can't fit through human-sized corridors, and assault weapons do work on the infantry-level strains. When fighting larger BETA groups, they do get heavier weapons. You have a few unfortunate examples in-series, but what's a dark story without a few situational unfortunates? Granted, if you were asking why full/partial powered armor isn't a thing later on in the series despite the existence of the Feedback Interface, which would let them make use of heavier infantry armaments more often, you would have a fair point. Same thing kinda goes to something like EML-99X, We see that this weapon wrecks 3000 BETA in less than 3 sec, but it is kinda scrapped? Nobody actually knows what happens to the weapon. They are nowhere near being able to mass-produce it as of Total Eclipse, and the series simply stops elaborating on it afterwards. Given the later purchase of Mk. 57 guns by the Japanese, it's probably safe to say that the EML-99 wasn't mass-produced; then again, by that point in time the war was already swinging back to humanity's favor, and the Mk.57 was probably a lot easier to maintain, and could be mass-produced a lot more easily. Different future from the one envisioned that needed the EML-99X to be developed, probably. Who knows, the EML-99X might re-appear in a future work. It's already made a separate appearance in the TDA timeline. Also why dont we share this tech with others? I can understand the point from political stand point, but really? YOU ARE DOWN TO LESS THAN 1 BILLION PEOPLE,LOST MORE THAN HALF OF EARTH AND ON BRING OF EXTINCTION! USE BRAINS! THINK! Our leaders would be do everything else than drinking coconut juice in hawai and thinking what do after we win war against BETA. Most people in muv are dumb as a rock. Here are few perfect examples...Keeping all tech for you'r selfes and not sharing it with others... Building TSF's to fight other humans...Doing cope during major fight for humanity. Allowing terrorist attack on research base... Sometimes the "political standpoint" is the one that unfortunately matters most to those in charge. Political avarice and selfishness are some of the key themes involved in the series' stories, as are people making a decision in times of crisis to pick the lesser of two evils; or even to pick between two equally bad outcomes. MLA just takes that and sets it so that human emotions win out over situational pragmatism. It's certainly not the first work to showcase the worst of humanity, even when the true enemy is at the gates. Believing BETA are messangers of god. Creating religion around BETA. '' This one is an oldie, people have been going down this path even before AD 0. ''Building orbital defenses AFTER earth is invaded. It's not like they could predict with surety that the Moon BETA wouldn't drop anything for the next 30 years. What if they picked wrongly and the Moon BETA started to rain landing units on them? Allowing BETA to land on earth. You could say that they were stupid for not building it given that they had fleeting suspicions on Mars, and confirmed it on the Moon, at least. Then again, hindsight is always 20/20, and that was before they had a real threat to push their intiative through. If the US had tried to build SHADOW before the BETA were recognized as a real threat, they'd probably end up in an Earth war with the Soviets first. After all, politics. Not nuking large BETA forces and suffering major losses. They actually did do that, although it is not very much elaborated on how they did it. Regardless, since G-bombs are the only known strategic-level weaponry to be able to resist Laser shots, it is reasonable to surmise that most nukes, which involved air launch or travel of some kind, would be shot down, meaning that one had to spend a lot of weapons to bring down a BETA group that could fit comfortably in the blast radius of just one nuke. Furthermore, nukes rely just as much on the subsequent pressure wave/heat that rolls outwards from the epicenter to deal damage, perhaps even more, than the explosion in the center of the strike zone. Yes, BETA would go down to the explosion, easily, as to flying debris or just being plain crushed by the pressure wave, but there's a huge loss in inefficiency from the lack of attrition to outer-region heat/pressure damage and to the later radiation damage. Those near or moderately far from the blast might get crisped with radiation burns even, but as a rule, they've been walking the unprotected surfaces of celestial bodies for nobody knows how long; if stellar radiation was no issue for them, lingering nuclear radiation will not be as well. Given their rate of replenishment and capability to ignore subsequent fallout, they can easily bounce back - and in fact, that is exactly what happened in communist China and Soviet Russia. Having 2000 nuclear bombs buried under alaska WITH A FUKING MOTION DETECTOR CONTROLLING THE EXPLOSION( one step closer to nuclear winter). Alaska is mostly devoid of people (or at least people that the USA give a damn about). And to be precise, it's a numerical detector, however that works, that makes the decision; it won't just blow the moment it detects BETA seismic wavelengths. Given it's implementation, it's likely that the ideal scenario intended for its use is of an overrun Alaska. Granted, you bring up a fair point with it, as the released BETA from Yukon Base that would have tripped the sensors would be nowhere near the levels expected of an Alaska-ward invasion, suggesting that Red Shift had a very low tolerance set for it, perhaps deliberately, again given the political climate depicted in the settings. The other legitimate point against it is probably the fact that hydrogen bombs of that size and number would probably, even before the guaranteed nuclear winter, shut out humans from fortifying the new frontline, while giving the BETA plenty of time to cross the newly-dug Straits of Alaska. Not bombarding hives with orbital weaponry. Orbital weaponry was otherwise nonexistent until the 1990s for ML, which then incorporated anti-laser munitions, solid projectiles, and Orbital Divers for a 3-in-1 strike. One could say that they should have dusted off the Rods of God concept, but then again we find ourselves around the Laser roundabout. What i am trying to say is that MUV would be so much better universe if it would not be limited by ridiculos plot points(laser classes) In ML there's just going to be another plot point in order to have humanity on the ropes. After all, the aliens have to have an overwhelming advantage to make the sense of crisis dire enough. Whether or not it is regarded as ridiculous is entirely up to anyone's personal preferences. and by stupid decisions made by humans that make you want to scream. I can see why some of it is regarded as contrived writing, especially if one's referring to the Soviet attempt to steal the EML-99X, or the scope of the aforementioned Red Shift. There are other plot points, however, that are legitimate, and an expected outcome of ML's preference for a more light-amongst-darkness story. The settings is one that takes multiple moments of bad decisions caused by short-sighted politicking and combines them into a cascade of consequences. This is an actual real-life trend, but while I definitely can't say that ML uses it in a legitimate manner all the time, I won't say that they've not made good use of it, either. Also the fact that BETA are part of "stupid aliens" syndrome. Well, if they could negotiate with the BETA, it wouldn't be a desperate total war story, would it? Even if they could talk to the BETA, there would have to be a reason to warrant such a total oppression of humanity's rights that it would seem unreasonable, because if both sides get a usable deal out of it - then where is the crisis of the story in the first place? It certainly won't be the same story as ML as it is now. I am also getting quite tired of entire mechs are superior to everything troupe. This is also a mecha series, mind. If the TSFs were presented as equal to other machines in the face of the BETA, the enemy that necessitated their development in the first place, wouldn't it defeat the point of including them in the story? As well, while the TSFs are indeed shown as the best anti-BETA weapon in the human arsenal, they aren't invincible, either to the BETA, or to other human weapons, even. Getting shot down by RPGs is not exactly a crowning moment, as you should understand, and that's not even getting to the SPAAGs and tanks. Like the aircraft they were based on, they are at their best when in control of the flow of battle, and not so hot when caught by surprise in the open, or at rest. As you said below, air superiority is a major factor; TSFs merely change that factor to "maneuver superiority". The concept is different, but the application of concept is still the same. War machines made for different purposes aren't going to stand equal to each other in all fields. You could say that TSFs seem to have the best traits of them all, but the way I see it, you could apply the same argument to fighters in Ace Combat. Also at the point we can build a TSF, Infantry would have more than enough means to deal with it. And not to even begin with all the other stuff we would have. Well, there's the normal exoskeleton, which is basically a small TSF given that it has most of the features of what a normal TSF has. Were the BETA more modest in size ML would probably feature exoskeletons instead, but, oh well. All in all, you are not wrong to talk about how the settings seem set-up to force certain scenarios, or the failings of decisions made by the characters in the settings. Personally, the settings is what makes a story possible. Even if the settings use a bias (eg. the Laser class), as long as they are consistent with it, I don't really see the issue. I may not agree with the way it is implemented, but that boils down to the personal preferences of what kind of story I like to see. For me, internal realism is more important than external standards of realism. I can accept TSFs being the prime anti-BETA weapon; however, I can't accept it as easily if suddenly a super prototype TSF appears that can use lasers and gravity shields and fire lightning from its fingertips, and especially if there's no buildup to it; eg. I didn't like the XFJ-01a Shiranui Second Phase 3 very much when it was first revealed in Total Eclipse back then, since apart from other reasons, a lot of the technology on it was either presented as having dead-ended in previous materials, or never referenced to anywhere else in the series. That it came to be at all depended heavily on a single character with a heavily convoluted list of relationships to the relevant characters in the story, which is the exact kind of thing you would probably detest, going by previous comments. Furthermore, with regards to human decisions in the story, the difference is that the characters are constructed to not have forewarning of their actions. For us, just on this wiki alone, we have an entire timeline page cataloguing the causes and results of every bad decision ever made, specific to timelines, even. Therefore, while you're free to make your thoughts known, I cannot agree with all of the points you bring up about world-building, since the way I see it, the suggestions offered in comments are usually always made with meta-knowledge of what will happen in the series, meta-knowledge that the characters don't have. I'm sorry to have to say this, but with regards to the way the settings are implemented, I'm going to have to say that we'll have to agree to disagree.